Curse

Stockholm · Aug 07, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I would say that 9 out of 10 groups that don't make it was rushing the grouping and not coordinating the skills before they left.
If you are going on a mission that takes 2 hours, when you know what to do at certein places and what enemys are spawning in the diffrent rooms etc etc. Taking 15-30 miniuts extra to make sure you have a good group, evry one has the right skills, no duplicate spirits, who's doing what where, and if you have a new player explaine whats comming and what to bring and WHY to bring it, and why certain skills are not good for the group set up.
Being prepared will get you alot further in the "elit" missions than just rushing in and later rage quit because a certain skill is missing. Then let a Experianced player do the pulling and aggroing( the group leader might not be the most experianced player), you tend to learn the spawn spots after a few run's and know whats poping up. And give a heads up to whats in the next room before entering. AND you will die on these missions, you get a lag spike, you get body blocked, you get popups between you and the rest of the group, degen + a hex and monk is low on juice, shit happens but you lose the DP very quickly, so just take it room by room and remeber next time you you will know more and get further and further. When they first did these missions it was an +8 hour mission and they said no pug would ever make it to the end, now we do it in about 2 hours, practise and patience.

Shadowfox1125 · Aug 07, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I was in The Deep/Urgoz's Warren for four hours last night, offering to answer ANY question that players ask. (You may have seen me as Syria Blackblood. Oddly, only people from GWOnline recognized me, even though my character name is to the left.

)

The most common questions were "What is b/p?" and "what is icy kd?"

The true reason for failure is that people don't know the builds!

As I said, group composition > player skill.

I'll be on later tonight answering questions.

(PS: I only saw 1 Mesmer and 1 Assassin LFG in those 4 hours. I believe we call that "social Darwinism." That's my stance on this whole Mesmer argument...)

I saw you on the 5th, but not on Syria Blackblood; I believe it was your Rt -- I was in The Deep. I wanted to say something, but my group was just about to leave.
As for an increase of failures, I really tend to disagree after my 3.5 hour romp with a group in The Deep. Before we left, I could have sworn that we weren't going to get the doors open in the first area. This was the group: 2 W/A(including myself), W/N Hammer, W/Mo(she kept attacking the Onis..), a Ranger(Trapper/Interupter), 1 Nuker, 4 Monks, 1 BiP, 1 SS. I really thought we would fail early in the mission. In the end, instead of our tongues licking the jade, Kanaxai was left on the ground. But groups that I believed to be better organized, simply could not get far. (3 W, 2 N, 4 Mo, at least 2 nukers, + something else)

Big_Iron · Aug 07, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Communication and patience are key to getting through these...before and during the missions. One of the most frustrating things I, like many, came across is, even after advertising that it would take hours to get through, people would start whining 20 minutes into a mission. "How much longer?" "Are we almost done?" "I have to go to dinner." Blah, blah, blah. Then they'd start dropping like flies. I know it's been said, but you can't sit down for a "quickie" when you're doing one of these...FOW or UW either for that matter. If you're not going to have the time to finish, please don't start.

Cebe · Aug 07, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Seeing as there's a thread made up for this I kinda wanted to winge a bit about those elite mission, or more accurately, the people playing in them...

I'm not singling out anyone in particular but some people are so unbelievably elitest about who they have on their team. The first time I've ever tried an elite mission was over the weekend when anyone could get in. I started off going to the deep, hmmm, what a shambles. I really didn't get what was going on and before I get all the "you noob" comments, yes, I realise I could have found out about it, but I kinda feel that you really shouldn't need to read a 100 page manual on a single mission before you play it...so, when we all just for owned in the deep I though...."no - never again".

I then decided to try Urgoz Warren. Found a group and then after 5 minutes someone said "sorry, don't need you" - *Kicked*. Huh? Wha...? I was in your group for AGES and suddenly you say you don't need me? I should say I am usually an air spiker, which I enjoy and that is the reason I play it, but if the team had just said "will you go fire magic instead" I would have done, and could have easily since I carry a replacement pyromancer's aura around with me for the extra attribute points and a fire staff....not to mention a whole array of fire magic skills - it wouldn't have been a problem. So I get into a group and say, "I'm fire at the moment but can change to air if you need it" to which someone replied "no, air is no good here" - fine, great, all I needed to know, and what's more, they didn't kick me... I think we got pretty far in the warren but then got owned in the section where every skill causes exhaustion. Urgoz Warren seems MUCH more doable that The Deep and it would have been nice to have finished it but....never again.

I feel those elite missions are such a waste of time, full of people who are like "if you haven't done this several hundred times before I don't want you on my team - cause you're a noob". Yeah - I'm pissed off about it, but I guess the mission kinda speaks for itself "elite" - only "elitest people allowed". Still, my curiosity has been answered and...never again!

Mustache Mayhem · Aug 07, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

had some time so went into urgoz the other day with my rit.. had some really good drops on a vent group with some new players.. got urgoz short and a zodiac hammer 15% stance 20/20 sunder- couple crap zodiac staffs in 2 runs.. far as the drops it looked to me like they were better than I remember

the runs are just experience like anything- without a group leader who knows what he's doing and directing the new guys it'll be a headache.. the only deaths we suffered was the tanks (that's normal though) and that was with peeps who'd never done urgoz before

a good rit helps the monks out alot so you need someone competent on that role (it's pretty kickback too).. only 2 monks and a rit are needed to do urgoz- alot of new guys I think make groups with 4 monks and all that does is double the mission time plus they don't know what they're doing

far as assassin and mesmer go- no real use for them in those areas I can see with that many mobs =\ I love playing mesmer secondary on my elemental for the aoe in fire and snipe of ineptitude/clumsiness but in the elite missions it's more about aoe damage/team support and a good leader who will setup the pulls and direct how each one goes down- if you have that anyone can do it

MSecorsky · Aug 07, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I had the pleasure of getting into the Warrens with my mesmer, which is my character of choice for the tougher PvE areas. At first... man, I was worthless. Didn't know what to expect, lousy skill bar setup for the area. Group died at the bridge, but at least it was because of poor aggro and inexperienced folks trying to fight under the flowers and not the mesmer.

However, I wound up stumbling on a few skills that worked rather well for me. Going with a group with five or six trappers, Fragility was a fun skill to spam around. Those rangers were slapping conditions like madmen, and seeing LOTS of -21 floating above the crowd was rewarding. Shatter hex was great fun at parties. I went with clumsiness and Ineptitude for single foe damage, mainly, and the interrupts and blindness helped on the damage prevention side of things, which made the monks jobs a touch easier. Backfire, Conjure and Burden rounded it off (with the rez sig), but I think now that I'd likely trade in the conjure for epidemic.

I also might drop something for Necrotic Traversal, thanks to the moron that stole my bow in that room where the archers are all on the bridge... I had a purple Zodiac Longbow (req 13) drop, and was vamping down to die so I could grab it. Idiot necro and his buddy monk wouldn't let me... monk would heal before I died, necro grabbed the bow, party fell apart at the blatant dishonesty. But I digress.

Granted, I was not a DPS mesmer. But if you consider damage prevented as well as damage caused in a support role, mesmers to me appeared to be quite useful in the Warrens. Many will and do disagree, such is life.

But I had a blast.

Gli · Aug 07, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

3) Most unexpected completion on the weekend was the barrage team I was with yesterday. We had:

<SNIP>

the MM got the longbow (monk #1 didn't get anything, thank goodness) one bow went to ranger #3, and the other went to "what am I suppose to do?"

Familiar story. I was on that team.

(I can prove it, I made some screenshots) I was R/Mo #3, the one who kept offering to go buy a sup BM rune so we could take off.

About forgetting to put down my spirit: I had been on a guild trip that got cut short after 4 hours with the exact same build except I used a different spirit. After playing for so many hours straight the games kind of blended together and I slipped into thinking I still had my original spirit (EoE). When I saw EoE up, I didn't put my WW down. I didn't realize all that until we got to Urgoz.

Funny game though. I don't think I've ever slaughtered that many rogue Bone Horrors in one mission.

Omega X · Aug 07, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

I had the pleasure of getting into the Warrens with my mesmer, which is my character of choice for the tougher PvE areas. At first... man, I was worthless. Didn't know what to expect, lousy skill bar setup for the area. Group died at the bridge, but at least it was because of poor aggro and inexperienced folks trying to fight under the flowers and not the mesmer.

However, I wound up stumbling on a few skills that worked rather well for me. Going with a group with five or six trappers, Fragility was a fun skill to spam around. Those rangers were slapping conditions like madmen, and seeing LOTS of -21 floating above the crowd was rewarding. Shatter hex was great fun at parties. I went with clumsiness and Ineptitude for single foe damage, mainly, and the interrupts and blindness helped on the damage prevention side of things, which made the monks jobs a touch easier. Backfire, Conjure and Burden rounded it off (with the rez sig), but I think now that I'd likely trade in the conjure for epidemic.

I also might drop something for Necrotic Traversal, thanks to the moron that stole my bow in that room where the archers are all on the bridge... I had a purple Zodiac Longbow (req 13) drop, and was vamping down to die so I could grab it. Idiot necro and his buddy monk wouldn't let me... monk would heal before I died, necro grabbed the bow, party fell apart at the blatant dishonesty. But I digress.

Granted, I was not a DPS mesmer. But if you consider damage prevented as well as damage caused in a support role, mesmers to me appeared to be quite useful in the Warrens. Many will and do disagree, such is life.

But I had a blast.

I love this Post. After all the Mesmer bashing in the previous pages, it only proves that a Mesmer is only as good as his/her spell building.

Surkon · Aug 07, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I did the elite mission this weekend as a Ranger Trapper and man did I lay a bunch of traps. I was glad a Mesmer was there also so I could get one more trap down with him interupting a charging e.

I thought as a trapper that was my job to defend the front line troups and Ele and mesmers so they could get there stuff off.I killed a lot of dredge and a lot came through but laying traps is what I was there for. In 2 hours I guess I pulled my bow 5 times and that was to pull a group of e to me and my traps.

Now I also consider my self a NOOB at Guild Wars as I have only been playing since Dec. 2005 but I am learning.

Surkon

dr1zz one · Aug 07, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I think the key to success is "to know your role and play it"
Most people think their build is l33t, and it may be, but it may also suck as part of the group build.

If I made a PUG group and it was all about speed and efficiency, i would not bring an Assassin, Ranger, or Mesmer. I would also check skill bars for the group build.

But if it was all about friends and guildies, i wouldn't care what character they brought, as long as we all have fun.

Edge Martinez · Aug 07, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I'd say the biggest reason this weekend was bad was all the quitters. I'd never done these missions before, but I tried Urgoz three times over the weekend. The first time was as a Barrager and before the first bark was killed, 5 people had dropped. The second time I went as an earth ele and we made it to the bridge where someone has to die to get on top... unfortunately we were all pretty much noobs to the mission, so we ended up quitting since no one died, or could die. The last time I went as a trapper and we made it to just before Urgoz before dieing. Three of the five trappers had rage quit at the degen room.

All in all, quitters made it near impossible to complete these missions this weekend, but at least now I know what to expect in the future.

And BTW, an earth ele working with trappers is very efficient. Stand at the traps, and right before the mob (especially thorn wolves) get there, start casting earthquake. After they spring the traps and earthquake takes them down, aftershock and tsumei's crystals finishes them. You're looking at approximately all the traps + 370 damage.

noblepaladin · Aug 07, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Mesmers in general are probably the most efficient class, since they have strong damage output (armor/level ignoring) and strong defensive capabilities (interrupts and hex removal). However, in highly organized teams, such as those in the Deep and Urgoz, people usually want characters that fill very small and specific roles. In this case, Mesmers are usually not optimal. However, as a few others pointed out, even in these organized groups, a team can bring 2 Ele's and a Mes rather than 3 Eles. It's a trade off between slightly less nuking damage for hex removal and other defensive measures.

Another note on Mesmer damage. Mesmers actually inflict a lot of damage. What many players forget is that damage is related to level (see guildwiki for more info). So when you nuke that level 28 monster with meteor shower, it does significantly less damage than it would against a level 20 monster with the same armor. In end game missions, Mesmers easily out damage most warriors with empathy alone, simply because it ignores level and armor. A Mesmer won't consistantly outdamage a Minion Master, Fire Ele, or a SS Necro though, but Mesmers do have more defensive capabilities in hex removal and interrupts, which monks will thank you for (Hexes actually do quite a bit of damage, those inspired/revealed/shatter hexes are virtually equivalent to heals).

However, most people would agree that in order to play a Mesmer effectively, you need to be very experienced. You need to have all the Mesmer skills at your disposal and you must know the mission extremely well. Almost all Mesmer skills are near overpowered in very specific situations, the key is knowing what skills are good in particular situations and knowning whether those situations occur within the mission. For example, Mesmers excel in many areas of the Shiverpeaks because there are many Elementalists mobs who use Ice Hexes and many Necro monsters too. Echoed/Glyphed shatter hex offer a lot of fire power and hex removal at the same time. Unfortunately, most PuG players are not very experienced. A not so experienced Elementalists knows to bring Meteor Shower, which works pretty well in any situation except ones that have interrupts (even then, it is managable). A Mesmer bringing echo/shatter to a place without many hexes is useless. That's why many PuG Mesmers are simply degen Mesmers spamming phantasm. There is no single Mesmer build that the casual player can find on a forum and learn how to use effectively. The fire nuker and MM build is the same regardless of the mission. The warrior tank builds are almost the same in all areas (small optimizations can be made, such as elemental resistance in areas with lots of Elementalists), but even a non-optimal build works pretty well. But Mesmers, they must figure out a new build for every mission, or at least have several different possible builds they must pick from (anti-melee, anti-caster, anti-hex, interrupt, etc) depending on the needs of the party and the mission.

I have to say, even though my favorite character is the Mesmer, since it involves the most thought and strategy (when I play the other classes, it is very obvious what I am suppose to do), it is very difficult to incorporate a Mesmer into a pick-up group trying to do the Deep or Urgoz. The team needs to be highly organized, which is very hard to do in a PuG. People want to stick with a certain style (B/P, trappers, etc) because it has been proven that it works, and it is much easier to arrange a successful team. Nobody wants to waste 1/2 an hour and fail the mission.

I hope in Nightfall, they figure out some way to incorporate Mesmers into missions... maybe an elite mission with tons and tons of hexes.

Astro Pubes · Aug 07, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

some of the best urgoz teams that i have been on had 1-2 Me/E fast cast water to slow down the mobs over the traps as the 2 echo nukers could lay into them better and deal a great deal more damage.

i myself have a mesmer and they are very useful in PvE as well as PvP the most under-rated class IMHO. the problem with mesmers is that only a few people that have one understand and know how to play it correctly. Mesmers were the original assassin lots of people had them, and lots of those people never took the time to figure out how to play it.

Killaya · Aug 07, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

After having read over this whole thread, I've decided to throw in my $0.02.

IMHO: Mesmers are the most useful, most versatile class out there. They can easily take out casters. They can be effective in taking down tanks. They can play a fast-cast healing build. Illusionary weapon lets them tank. And y'know, there's even a mesmer Droks running build. Memsers are underrated completely.

--

Concerning the topic of this thread: the reason more teams fail this week is: Keineng Centre is open to people who just got off "noob island" or who just came down from Tyria and have no prior experiance with the elite missions. If you actually spend time waiting for a ferry to the missions you're more likely to get a good group because that shows that people actually -want- to finish the mission, not go to it just because they suddenly can.

Eviance · Aug 08, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

Mesmers in general are probably the most efficient class, since they have strong damage output (armor/level ignoring) and strong defensive capabilities (interrupts and hex removal). However, in highly organized teams, such as those in the Deep and Urgoz, people usually want characters that fill very small and specific roles. In this case, Mesmers are usually not optimal. However, as a few others pointed out, even in these organized groups, a team can bring 2 Ele's and a Mes rather than 3 Eles. It's a trade off between slightly less nuking damage for hex removal and other defensive measures.

~neutered~

I hope in Nightfall, they figure out some way to incorporate Mesmers into missions... maybe an elite mission with tons and tons of hexes.

Very well thought out and accurate post about mesmers. And you are completely right about why they aren't usually picked for elite missions. I stopped playing my mesmer in anything but pvp, but I miss playing her in pve - she just isn't picked up for groups well. *shrugs*
I take what the team "needs" and thats what makes me part of the team imo.
Good post sir!